Hear Him Heal You
This podcast is for those who are looking to experience the Savior more in their lives because of the peace and healing that only He can offer through revelation. Come unto Christ to get out of the mental mire, find meaning in emotion, leave bad behind, and finally, be whole. This is where we hear Him to be healed.
Hear Him Heal You
Holy Hot Take: We Don't Believe in the Trinity
A single social media post about the Trinity doctrine ignited a firestorm of theological debate, revealing how deeply our understanding of God's nature shapes our entire spiritual experience. Morgan and Joel dive headfirst into this controversy, exploring the profound differences between traditional Trinitarian views and the Latter-day Saint concept of the Godhead.
The conversation takes us through the historical development of Trinitarian thought, tracing its origins not to biblical authors but to later church councils where competing theological viewpoints were often resolved through political processes rather than revelation. This history sets the stage for examining why these distinctions matter beyond mere academic debate—they fundamentally shape how we relate to deity.
At the heart of this episode is a powerful question: How does our conception of God's nature affect our personal relationship with Him? When we view God the Father as an embodied being who truly understands our mortal experience rather than an incomprehensible essence, does that change how we pray? When we see Jesus Christ as a separate being who willingly sacrificed at His Father's request rather than as another manifestation of the same being, does that deepen our appreciation of the Atonement?
Through examining listener comments and scriptural passages, Morgan and Joel illuminate how the Godhead doctrine creates space for a more personal, relatable connection with deity. They explore how believing we are ontologically similar to God—that we are the same kind of being with divine potential—provides profound purpose that might be diminished when deity is placed in an entirely separate category of existence.
This episode isn't about criticizing other faiths but about appreciating how theological frameworks profoundly shape our spiritual journeys. Both hosts share powerful personal testimonies of how their understanding of the Godhead has fostered deep, meaningful relationships with Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost—relationships that have become foundational to their identities and faith.
Whether you're curious about theological differences or seeking to deepen your personal connection with deity, this thought-provoking discussion will leave you reflecting on how your understanding of God's nature shapes every aspect of your faith journey.
Welcome to Hear Him Heal you with Morgan and Joel. This podcast is for those that are imperfect, rough around the edges but are still wanting to come unto Christ. Join us to get out of the mental mire, find meaning in emotion and leave bad behind. This is where we hear Him to be healed. Welcome back, little flock, for another episode. I think you guys are really going to enjoy this one. We recently well, I shouldn't say we, joel recently posted a meme that how should I? What's the best way? Stoked some, stirred the pot a bit, stirred the pot quite a bit. So we kind of want to go through some of the comments on that post from Instagram. I think there's a lot of good things we can learn from those comments from each other, and it definitely got me thinking as to more about what we're going to talk about today. Well so, joel, I'll let you kind of take over more about what we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 2:Well, so, joel, I'll let you kind of take over, you can kind of explain the post and kind of what made you want to go out and post that.
Speaker 2:So the post was, it was just a meme making fun of the fact that the Trinity is not actually biblical.
Speaker 2:So a lot of times we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are excluded from the Christian conversation because we don't adhere to the Trinity, and my big thing that I had an issue with because of that was well, the Trinity is not even laid out in the Bible, and the doctrine of the Trinity, I think, is not even understood by the majority of Christians who profess it.
Speaker 2:And so I made this just to kind of prove a point that there's no singular author of the Bible who ever taught the Trinity. And the only thing that you will see people do is they'll do what's called selective theology, where they cherry pick verses and then kind of smash them together in this Frankenstein monster they call the Trinity or what they call a defense of the Trinity, or they call the Trinity or what they call a defense of the Trinity. But no singular author ever taught that, and so that sparked a ton of outrage from people who adhere to the creed, to the creeds which produced the Trinity, and so there's been a lot of discussions now on the nature of God, on the nature of revelation and how we know these things and know truth. So it sparked a lot of fun conversations for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1:I even think it sparked a lot of good conversations between us, I think this whole week, when we've been just reading through these comments and just kind of expressing our own frustrations with some of these comments, because we feel like the Trinity robs us of some, I don't know, some personal beliefs or how I, or even my relationship with God and Christ right, I think it has definitely really made me think about what is the Godhead doctrine? Because we teach in the LDS Church. Obviously we talk about the Godhead, not the Trinity, and it's kind of made me realize like if I grew up in a different frame of reference or a different belief system other than in the LDS church, it kind of made me realize I would have a very different relationship with each member of the Godhead. And I think we'll get more into that. But I think we need to start off so that way we all understand what we're referencing. I guess, joel, what is the Trinity in? I guess, in the most basic terms, we could possibly put them in as well as you understand it, right?
Speaker 2:Okay, so the easiest way I can describe the Trinity, as laid out through various creeds, mainly from the Athanasian Creed, is that God is a triune being right. It is three separate, distinct personages who are of one shared substance or essence, being consubstantial and co-eternal and co-uncreated and also described as what was the word they used Incomprehensible. That is the Trinity. I 100% reject that. I do not believe that at all. That's one thing I just can't wrap my head around is you try to comprehend, but part of comprehending is understanding that it's incomprehensible. Kind of a fun paradox there. So, anyways, that was. The big issue is there is no verse that ever says that God is consubstantial or being of the same essence or substance, and that's where the debate really got sparked.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and even before we get into the debate, like you kind of we kind of talked about where, like the Trinity belief came from, which is from the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed and just sequential like councils that really brought Trinitarianism into like the mainstream right. Yeah, Can you kind of give us the history on that, because obviously that is your wheelhouse, not mine?
Speaker 2:Okay, so this is I will present this as a theory, this is my personal theory and belief for why the Trinity came to be. This goes back actually does not start with the great apostasy, but rather it starts with the great what's it called, I guess falling away back in the times of the Israelites, right. So we know that there was rampant apostasy at the time of Lehi and Nephi when they left Jerusalem, right, and one of these things I believe there was a reformer by the name of King Josiah. Now in the books of Scripture he is heralded as a great reformer and someone who was very righteous, but I disagree with that. He taught a very strict and hard monotheism. They got rid of all other symbols of deity out of the temple and they kind of consolidated the divine family, as we know it, of a father, a son and a mother and the Holy Ghost. Right. They took this divine family and got rid of it and made it very singular, and so that's reflected in the book of Deuteronomy as well as the reforms that King Josiah went about doing.
Speaker 2:So I believe that there was this tradition of strict monotheism that was not necessitated by the original gospel as preached to Adam and to all the patriarchs right that we inherited. You know, now we skip a hundred years from there to when Christ comes on the earth and Judaism operates under strict monotheism. Now the message of Christ spreads about. They break off from Judaism, but they still have adopted this strict monotheistic view, and so they're trying to fit the fact that Christ is God right, the Son is God, the Father is God and the Spirit is God. And so what you run into an issue there with is well, how do we rectify that with the Jewish tradition we've inherited? And so that's where I think the real problem begins is because we and creeds written to establish, trying to decide the nature of God, who is the Father, who is the Son and who is the Spirit. So I hope that kind of helps explain why we get into this muddled mess of these creeds and councils.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no-transcript. And then they put it up to a vote while there was still probably, in my opinion, large parties who didn't believe in Trinitarianism, in my opinion, large parties who didn't believe in Trinitarianism, and so I think it's really hard to 100% adhere to the idea of Trinitarianism because it was voted upon, and then there's people that didn't believe that in these councils as well, and I contrast that with our church, with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency don't act on anything or put anything forward to the greater body of the church unless they are all of one heart and one mind, 100% consensus, and feel the same thing on any given topic. Right?
Speaker 2:Exactly, and that's where I think the other question that it begs is who had the authority? And that's why I'm such a believer that the apostasy was well rampant early in the days of the church. Right Was the fact that there was no apostolic authority to make a binding decision on this. This wasn't something that the apostles gathered or counseled about. These were bishops from local churches and early church fathers and other leaders from larger congregations getting together and debating. There wasn't a, like you said, there wasn't a consensus and there was a lack of unity, and I do not believe that God will ever operate in disunity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent. No, I I really agree, and I think the the part that caught me off guard, or uh, or even I think what really stood out to me when we were talking about this is, like you even talked about how like they would decide to vote on a day when their opposition wasn't going to be there, and so it was kind of like a power play or a power grab, and more political than a spiritual environment, while I think it's really hard to find truth and purity and avoid corruption when you're operating from a place of trying to gain power and status rather than just a place of searching for truth, right? So I think a lot of prevailing ideas in Trinitarianism is because they first tend to start from a place where they could really be influenced by the Spirit of God, either.
Speaker 2:Exactly and I think there's another thing to be pointed out is that there was a separation. They ontologically separated themselves from deity. We don't do that in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We don't. We believe that ontologically, we are the same kind of being and species as our Father in heaven and we have potential to become like him. That is an empowering doctrine. That is one that moves us to do great things. Now, the best way to weaken somebody is to take that away from them right. To make them controllable is to take that away from them. Don't let them know their divine potential and don't let them even fathom the idea that they could become like God, you know. Take away this literal parentage to deity right, and instead separate and make it a very vague and mysterious thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and maybe for those that don't know, joel, can you explain ontological?
Speaker 2:Heavenly Father has a body. He's embodied like us. We look like him. Heavenly Father is a human man who is exalted in the yonder heavens above. Okay, he is a man. We are men. Ontologically we are the same.
Speaker 1:Perfect, Thank you. I knew someone was probably going to look that up and be like I don't even know what that means. I know what you're referring to.
Speaker 2:All the Trinitarians are going to tell me how gross I am for saying that and I'm a disgusting decrepit being who's filthy. And then I always ask well, does Christ not make me clean? They're like well, not that much. I'm like okay, that's very interesting view. Didn't realize the atonement was so limited in your eyes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and one thing I want to get clear before we jump into these comments is we're not here to really dunk on any one religion or put anyone down, because I don't feel like that is extremely helpful at any time. But I do think when we have like discourse and opposition of opinions, I think it does create an environment for us to think deeper about things and really dig into what is the truth and what we believe, and that's something that I really appreciated about going through our comments section on this. Both was I'm like you could have seen it with all our conversations they had I was getting heated. I was like no, that is not true, like I don't believe that, but it was because it really attacked core beliefs of mine and experiences I've had that really have built my testimony, have really created a very intimate and personal relationship with not only my Heavenly Father, but for my Savior, jesus Christ, and even with the Spirit, and I feel like Trinitarium does attack a lot of those things for me, and so that's the perspective I'm going to take a lot of the time. I think Joel is very good at getting into the theological side and explaining that, and that's where I think we'll, where we really balance each other out. So so let me go ahead and pull up some of these comments for us to look at, because I think like, once again, I hope everyone walks away from this, this episode, feeling like they want to deepen their relationship with their heavenly father or their savior, and even learn to listen to the Spirit better as well, especially when it comes to ideas that—when there's lots of conflicting ideas and it really helps you to discern what is right. So, okay, perfect.
Speaker 1:So I guess the part—the one that I want to start out with is from Nren23, and he says for those that aren't watching the video portion of this, and he said Trinity is truth and logical. Father is the invisible source forever in God's infinite glory. The Son is how God simultaneously interacts in dimensions lesser than himself. God's Spirit is throughout the heavens and the universe, working in unison to God's will for life, because everything came from God. Then he goes on, because I think his next comment also adds to this. He says no, yeah, it's very logical. In order for God to interact with our limited physical reality, he needs to lessen himself to our physical reality, while remaining in his infinite glory, his spirit maintains life and the universe. The fact that you think we should be able to fully understand God is alarming. So, joel, what's your first reaction to those?
Speaker 2:My first reaction is what? I take a step back. I was like wait, wait, wait, wait. I had to read that a couple of times and then I have to like switch my brain from LDS theology mode to like Trinitarianism mode, right, and I was like, okay, they believe that God is not the same as us, that God is a, is being itself right, that he is the source of everything and that he created everything ex nihilo, meaning out of nothing. And so I had to like put myself in that frame of reference to understand what he's saying. So he's saying that God is the ultimate source of everything, of being right, and so anything that ever is right he created out of nothing. And then his manifestation, when he's saying, lessens himself to communicate to us that he took on the flesh in the form of Jesus Christ so that he could dwell amongst us without burning us up in his glory, and his spirit is somehow holding all that together. That's what I think he's trying to say.
Speaker 2:From their perspective Hopefully I'm not missing like misrepresenting him my issues with that is the fact that you are now taking the father and making him being itself right. You're not. He's no longer a personal, it's no longer a personal father. It's no longer a personal relationship, a connection with them, right? You're not. He's no longer a personal, it's no longer a personal father. It's no longer a personal relationship, a connection with them, right? He is just the other source of of all things, right? Which we don't believe, right? We believe that all material and matter is eternal and that God is eternal and it existed with us and he has organized it, right? Yeah, and so that was my first reaction is like how do I relate to something that is just being itself, that is an unrelatable God?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's kind of what I took away from this one too is like the Father or Heavenly Father is the invisible source. And I was like man if God is invisible or doesn't, or is just like I don't know, like without material, or it's like, how can he truly love me? And I think back on personal experiences where I felt like God's love so poignantly and how that real, how real that was, and in those moments I really feel like God was revealing himself to me and I'm like, if he's really invisible, how can he invoke those type of feelings for me? Or how can he make his nature, his thoughts, so I don't know like so aware in my mind, right, and I don't know like it just goes back to what you were saying about relatability.
Speaker 1:It's really hard, like, and I think it's like we choose our friends, who we date, who we marry, all these things, who we work with, based off how relatable they are, and a lot of the times we'll move on from people when we no longer relate to them and I think that's what makes like this idea so hard is, if God is unrelatable, why would we even want to follow his commandments? Why would we even want to follow his commandments. Why? Why would we want to fall after someone who doesn't look like us, doesn't talk like us, doesn't? Um, you know, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like yeah it really separates our connection to God, right, and to the father, yeah, and especially if you believe that he created everything out of nothing and that there was no pre-existing material or pre-existing intelligences which he organized into our spirit bodies, right, like, why did he make us? Why was he just bored someday and decided to make us out of nothing and say, hey, I'm going to send you all to earth. Some of you are going to go straight to hell, and those who are lucky enough to hear the name of my son, jesus christ who's actually me, uh, manifesting myself in the flesh y'all can be saved and come to heaven. The rest of them are going to go to hell. What you know, it's like and and and.
Speaker 2:That situation or that scenario I just proposed to you, that conversation never even happens because we didn't exist before in their theology, right? That's what's so interesting to me. It's like I truly believe that the scriptures reflect a divine counsel where we were present and able to witness this plan of happiness and we know that we've existed eternally, but that we wanted to exist eternally, like Heavenly Father did, and that's why we chose to follow His plan, because we wanted to be like Him. We saw that we had the potential to be like him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like that follows like the nature of what we see in this life, right, like we see, like every child, when they like they look like for me, I looked up to my dad. I wanted to do the same things my dad did. I wanted to serve a mission, I wanted all the all these different things, right. And I think, like, why wouldn't heaven follow the same course? Like, did we not look up to our Heavenly Father and did we not want to be like Him and grow to understand the things that he understood? And I don't know? It's just like it's really sad to think that if we like, once again, if I was raised outside of this church, it would have been really sad to think that, like, I only came into existence in this life, right, knowing that I was never truly connected to God until now.
Speaker 2:Right, I didn't really choose this Exactly.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot of power in knowing that we chose this life and we're here to learn how to live by faith and grow in that regard, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right. What other comments do we got here?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So then we got Colin Okifi 77. I probably butchered that name, but here we go. So this is what he said. So he said so God had two persons instead of three is what you're saying. Also, trinitarianism doesn't say Jesus was praying to himself. The Trinity is the idea of three persons, each with their own role, but still together as one God. You really don't sound far off from that at all. Then he goes on. He says by the way, trinitarians wouldn't say the Father and the Son were both in the body of Jesus, or whatever. We agree with you that you're describing our doctrine of the Godhead and this person is not a member of our church. Our doctrine of the Godhead and this person is not a member of our church.
Speaker 2:Dude Trinitarians desperately seek the Godhead, but it's like one of those situations where you've dug the hole so deep for yourself. You just don't want to admit that it's your own fault or that like you know, so you don't want to admit it, that you're wrong, and so you just start.
Speaker 1:you start digging laterally, thinking you're gonna go up like it's just like well it's kind of the law of like uh, sunk cost, like you've sunk so much of your time and effort and beliefs into this system that you're like well, if I go against what I've been taught, it wreckscks my worldview right, or my belief system, and so I think like a lot of the times, that's where this is coming from is like they're like well, if I disagree with this, what is it Like? It would put them in crisis and I would feel the same way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's just kind of. It's kind of humorous to me because I guess it's like you're not describing the Trinity anymore. The Trinity, like I said earlier and you can go read the Athanasian Creed, right these are supposedly beings sharing or distinct persons, not beings, persons sharing the same substance or being embodied in one being right, and so that is what the Trinitarian belief is. And it's so funny to me, I find that so many Christians don't even understand the Trinity as it's laid out. They understand it much more closer to the Godhead.
Speaker 2:And it's very interesting to me that other Trinitarian apologists will say that Latter-day Saints are going to hell because even if we do worship the Father, son and the Holy Ghost, believe them all to be God, we don't adhere to the Trinity. So you're not worshiping the correct God. If we're worshiping him correctly, right, and so that's why we're going to hell. Well, the funny thing is is most of these people don't understand the Trinity either. They say I believe the Trinity, but they describe the Godhead no-transcript and switching modes, hence called modalism, right. So I see even people who claim so many people claim to believe the Trinity, but almost none of them actually understand the doctrine as it's taught in the creeds not realizing that it's not, and I think the reason that's such a struggle for them is they don't understand that when it says the Father, son and the Holy Ghost are one in the Bible, it does not mean what the creeds say. One means.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this really made me think about, like the idea of Occam's razor where razor, where usually the simplest answer is the right one.
Speaker 1:And once again, I come from a place where I feel, based off my experience with God, that I believe in the Godhead right, and I interpret scripture to mean that there is three distinct beings that we interact with individually, who have separate roles but have unity and purpose.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's kind of what, like it is very. It's so much easier for me to think like I have a Father in heaven who sent His Son, a separate being, to save us, and the way that God communicates with us and bears witness of His Son as the Savior of the world, as our personal Savior, is through the Spirit, because the Spirit can witness directly to our spirit the truth of all things. And that is a much simpler idea for me to grasp rather than trying to understand like you're saying, like this—all—there are three separate beings of the same substance and they just present in different ways. Or Christ was some type of avatar that God used as a way to show himself to us as mortals. I'm really having a hard time grasping that and trying to understand what are even the benefits of believing in Trinitarianism, because I really am struggling to see any right.
Speaker 2:I think it's a scare word of being called polytheist, and people are just scared to be called that because they don't know there's other. I swear, everyone I talk to only believes that there's two different religious beliefs monotheism and polytheism. They don't know about other things like monolatry or henotheism, which is the acknowledgement of other deities, right, but the worship of only one, or you know. So it's so interesting to me. It's like people get so caught up on the semantics right Of like, well, how is there one God, but three beings? So that would be three gods. I'm like, I don't know. Maybe that is what it is, or maybe you can understand that the word God is what we use to describe the Greek word theos, right, I think, is what it is, or theon, whatever the Greek word for deity is, and so it's like there's just so many. It's like we talked about this.
Speaker 2:There's so many issues with translations and understanding that, like, what we understand in our language does not always reflect perfectly what the author was trying to write in their language. So, going back to this whole idea of God being one, Well, if you read the Greek right, the word is hen and it means usually more in a sense of unity, right. And people argue and say, well, no's just as one, like they're one shared substance. Well, the funny thing is there is a Greek word for that. It's homoousius. Right? That word does not appear in the biblical manuscripts ever. So if that's what they meant, why wouldn't they have used that word? Because no one believed or taught that the Father and Son and the Holy Ghost were homoousius. They believed they were one as in unified.
Speaker 1:Yeah, more in the sense of like a husband and wife are one, but they're still two separate beings, right.
Speaker 2:That's a great analogy. One flesh, he even says that in the scriptures right they should become twain in one flesh, One flesh.
Speaker 1:He even says that in the scriptures. Right, they should become 20 in one flesh. But we know that, like when we get married, we don't just become like, we don't just become a blob with that other person. Right, we still have our separate ideas, we still have our separate roles, but we're working for the goodness of the family unit and I think that is really what we need to understand about our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Spirit. They are separate beings working for the—like. They're in unity and purpose, working for the good of all mankind, for the salvation of mankind, and I think that just once again models what we see on earth. Once again.
Speaker 1:And it's funny that in the Bible they mimic the same language about marriage. Right, Like you just said, they're one flesh, and so, once again, I feel like there's just so much more evidence as we look at how they described other things in the Bible as well. And this also brings up a really good point that I want to throw out. There is this is why we also had the need for further scripture and prophets and apostles. I think when you bring the Bible and the Book of Mormon together, it clarifies a lot of understanding, especially because then you have two points of reference and you can kind of see like, oh, they talk about the same things in the same way both in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon. But then I also feel like that's where, even if there is still confusion, we still have Latter-day prophets and apostles who can give us, who can receive revelation for the whole body of the church and correct some of these false prevailing ideas.
Speaker 2:Right, Exactly so any other comments you wanted to get to, or anything else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one that I think was really interesting to me was this one by Alex22Moser, and he quotes Genesis 1.26. And once again, not a member of our church. And he says Then God said Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness. They shall rule over the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle, the whole earth and all the creatures that crawl on the earth. And he goes on to say who is us and our? There is plurality of persons working in complete unity one with another, with one divine nature. So this one actually really, really confused me. Until I understood. I was like, once again, I was just like he's explaining the Godhead, but he was saying this proves the Trinitarianism, or the Trinity, because they're talking in a plural sense. It means that there is distinct beings of one substance.
Speaker 2:And I was like once again, Can I interject as well?
Speaker 1:Yeah, go for it, dude.
Speaker 2:That has nothing to do with the Trinity. Okay, has nothing to do with the Trinity, okay, like. If you're just looking at it from like a historical and scholarly approach, jewish scholars will tell you that that does not imply that there's multiple people. They definitely believe that God was one being right, without a plurality of persons or natures. They believe that using the words such as Elohim, which is literally God, right, it's a plural for God was a way of showing, I believe, majesty or grandeur or something like that. Right, it was to make them seem otherworldly right, because they don't believe in the Jewish tradition that God is, you know, like personages, right, like we do right. Personages right Like we do right.
Speaker 2:And so this whole idea of persons is a much more. It's an idea that shows up much later. Well, I take that back. It was there, it was taken away, and then it shows back up. So, anyways, what I'm trying to get at is like, if you read the scriptures in their historical context and from the groups of people who produce these texts, they will tell you that it has nothing to do with the Trinity to begin with. So it's kind of funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know it just once again really iterated the idea of like this is way too complex, like when it's. I think this should be a very simple doctrine because, like, if we can understand God and his nature in relation to us, how can we start to even build upon that to understand other teachings, other commandments and things like that? And one last one, before we move on from this is this one is like it was part of a go back and forth between someone who is a member and someone who's not, and they the, the member. He said if we were made in the image of the triune God, so that's meaning that the Trinity, the Trinity we should be, we should, we as people should be triune too. Why are we not triune? So basically, he's saying, if we're made in the image, why do we not refer to ourselves as a plural being? And I was like homie's got a point.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then the non-member goes on to say this and he says, in a way, we are triune Body, souls, souls and spirit, god's ideal purpose for himself in the terms of us and our image was severed after the fall, and christ on the cross and on the last day will fully restore our purpose in being co-workers in his paradise. And I'll be honest, my mind like literally disconnected and had to reboot after reading this part. I could not like truly grasp what he was trying to say here. When it comes to us being triune beings, coworkers, what hope like for those that will listen to this episode like this is where I really like want to just bear my own testimony that we as human beings me and joel, we we have a father in heaven who loves us dearly. In fact, he loved us so much he created a whole plan for those that wanted to be like him, who aspired to be like him, could obtain such a life, and the only way to do that was to provide a sacrifice. Who was our Savior, jesus Christ. God himself couldn't die for our sins because he was an eternal being, so he had to send someone who could perform that role, who was mortal yet divine. So Jesus Christ, who could be that sacrifice for our sins and bring into effect the law of mercy. And bring into effect the law of mercy. And the law of mercy says that if we repent and come unto Christ we can be forgiven of our sins and only through Christ return to our Father in heaven.
Speaker 1:And the only reason I know, I have a testimony of the plan of salvation, of the atonement of Jesus Christ and our ability to repent and be forgiven is because of the Spirit, the Holy Ghost. I have had this witness to me, the truthfulness of this doctrine witnessed to me over and over and over again, to the point, regardless of what others believe, that can't be shaken, that can't be taken from me, because if I didn't know that God loved me and had had so many experiences where that was, I don't know, expressed to me through the Spirit, like I don't know who I would be if I was robbed of those relationships with my Father in Heaven and with my Savior. So that's just kind of my take on all of this. I know I may never convince others to believe the same way I do, but hopefully my testimony can add to countless other testimonies from prophets and apostles that there is a God, he sent His Son, and that's all I really wanted to say.
Speaker 2:Joel, anything you wanted to add yeah, dude, I'll just leave with my testimony that I know that we have a Father who presented a plan for us, right? He wanted us to become like Him and that he wanted us to experience life the way that he does, eternally and immortally. And I know that he sent His Son, jesus Christ, to die for us, to lead us and to show us that way and how to obtain that, and made these things possible. And one of my favorite verses I love going to is when it's in the book of John and it's when Christ sees Mary at the tomb and he tells her I believe he says so, I know that we can have that and I think that shows a very deep and personal relationship with our Heavenly Father, with the Divine, and that Christ came with a message that we can all have that personal relationship with Him, that God is not unknowable, rather that he is knowable. And with that despair, not build upon the rock, do good and always remember to hear him.
Speaker 1:We'll see you, little Flock. Hey, little Flock. If you felt this episode was helpful for your testimony, please like, leave a review and share with a friend and follow for more.