Hear Him Heal You
This podcast is for those who are looking to experience the Savior more in their lives because of the peace and healing that only He can offer through revelation. Come unto Christ to get out of the mental mire, find meaning in emotion, leave bad behind, and finally, be whole. This is where we hear Him to be healed.
Hear Him Heal You
When God Commands the Uncomfortable: Wrestling with Polygamy
The question of polygamy remains one of the most challenging topics in Latter-day Saint history. In this thought-provoking episode, Joel and Morgan welcome back Ross (the Latter-day Avenger) to tackle the resurgence of "polygamy denial" on social media—the claim that Joseph Smith never practiced plural marriage and that polygamy was invented by Brigham Young after Joseph's death.
This fascinating conversation delves into the substantial historical evidence for Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy, while examining the complex purposes behind early plural marriage. The hosts explore how many of these unions functioned as "dynastic sealings" focused on creating eternal family connections rather than traditional marital relationships. They highlight that DNA evidence shows Joseph only had children with Emma, suggesting many marriages were ceremonial rather than conjugal.
Drawing connections to biblical precedents, the discussion examines how polygamy appears connected to establishing covenant people during dispensational shifts. Abraham, Jacob, and Moses all practiced plural marriage during pivotal moments in religious history—a pattern that continued with the restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith.
Perhaps most compelling is the evidence of Joseph's reluctance to implement polygamy. According to multiple historical accounts, an angel with a sword had to command Joseph to proceed with the practice. As Ross points out, reading Richard Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling" makes clear that polygamy brought Joseph nothing but trouble and conflict.
The conversation culminates in a powerful insight: when we face difficult gospel topics directly instead of retreating into denial, we create opportunities for profound spiritual growth. As Joel testifies, "It's better to remain in a difficult situation knowing that you're obeying God, than to live in an easy situation while being in defiance to the Lord." How might your own faith journey be strengthened by embracing rather than avoiding challenging questions?
Welcome to Hear Him Heal you. With Morgan and Joel. This podcast is for those who are imperfect and rough around the edges but are still wanting to come unto Christ. Essentially, it's for everyone. So join us to get yourself out of the mental mire, find meaning in emotion and leave bad behind. This is where we hear Him to be healed.
Speaker 2:What's happening, guys? So we're back today with Hear Him, heal you, and we have a returning guest right, our first guest and our second guest. By popular demand, we have Ross coming back, the Latter-day Avenger, so we're stoked to have him here today and we decided to talk about something super soothing and everyone loves. We're going to talk about polygamy, our favorite thing, so it's not controversial at all. No one gets upset about it.
Speaker 1:This is my favorite thing to talk about day in and day out. It's like the first.
Speaker 2:So, anyways, no, the reason I wanted to talk about this today and why we decided this was a great topic is recently this trend of polygamy denial has been popping up again.
Speaker 2:I'm seeing more and more of it on Instagram, on social media, on YouTube, and people love focusing on one aspect of it while ignoring the other side of the argument. And so, just for anyone who doesn't understand or know what the polygamy denial is, in simplest terms, there's a group of Latter-day Saints who believe that Joseph Smith was a monogamous and that polygamy was a creation of Brigham Young and other early church leaders in the first presidency, the apostles and the Relief Society presidencies, the apostles and the Relief Society presidencies, anyways. What they love to focus on is all these little, maybe potential evidences that Joseph Smith was a monogamous, but they love to ignore the fact that what they're implying is that the early church leadership were apostates and corrupt, and the authority is no longer here on the earth. It is once lost when joseph died. So that's the dangerous thing about this whole narrative of polygamy denial is you have to admit, then, that once again, that authority is off of the earth?
Speaker 1:so it was just restored for a brief time and then they think they apostatized right after joseph smith died is Pretty much Okay. Yeah, what was it Like? I just I'm curious what evidence or what did they? Are they coming up with this on their own and it's just being perpetuated, or is there, like certain things that they've read, seen in church history, that kind of lead them down this path?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this isn't really new. If anyone's looked into the break-off branches of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not the FLDS but the RLDS who is now the Community of Christ you know those who thought that Joseph Smith III should be the prophet. They for a long time denied the polygamy of Joseph Smith right of Joseph Smith, right Emma herself. Emma Smith denied it at some points, right, and there are no public statements of Joseph Smith endorsing it. The only thing that we have of Joseph Smith claiming, or that claims to be, a revelation to Joseph Smith is DNC 132. And they like to argue that because it didn't come out in Joseph Smith's lifetime, that it was actually just contrived by Brigham Young later. But I mean, if you're going to use that same logic, you could probably throw out most of his translations of the Old Testament Pearl of Great Price book.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, so by that logic that anything that comes out after Joseph Smith's death is questionable and probably isn't reliable? Well, there's many things that didn't come out For one. Look at some of the translations from the Old Testament and from well, just the Bible, the Joseph Smith translation. I believe that a lot of the book of Abraham didn't even come out until after he was dead, or wasn't even in the canon until Joseph Smith was dead. There were several things right that Joseph Smith had been working on, projects and revelations that had not been released.
Speaker 2:So that's why I don't really buy that argument, whether or not there's some claim that you can see Brigham's influence on that. Well, if Brigham Young had this prophecy and saw fit that it needed to be edited even more, or that he felt inspired to change some things, I think as a prophet he's entitled to do that as the president of the church, and so it really comes down to do you believe that prophetic secession happened with Brigham Young or not? And I believe it did. I believe it happened, and I believe that polygamy was instituted and taught in private by Joseph Smith. There's no public record of him supporting polygamy, only him condemning the malpractice of polygamy.
Speaker 1:So there is? Yeah, no, I think there is. I mean, I definitely think you see more of this polygamy denial than online, because I'm not online nearly as much as usual. But I will say, like, at the same time, like when I first really dove into like the history of polygamy, there was, like it is a jarring topic. It's just like the idea of polygamy is such a foreign idea nowadays, like we do know that there's been groups throughout history that practice polygamy, even during the same time as the saints did. Right, we knew that there was Muslims, like culture that did allow for polygamy, even in the US during that time. And then we can even talk about other historical like, like the family of Abraham, and there's been different times where religious groups under the direction of God to practice polygamy.
Speaker 2:And there's even laws in the Law of Moses regulating polygamy, right, and so that's the other thing. The Jews practice polygamy. Quite from what I'm aware, and from just that kind of textual evidence, it appears that they basically practice it, for I don't know man like. It just seems like it always was kind of a cultural thing. They did that they did practice polygamy, and Moses had multiple wives and David and Solomon, though we kind of view what David and Solomon did, it was instituted to them and then they kind of allowed that to get out of hand, whether that was for political purposes or for sexual being a part of God's chosen people, right, and that it's not always practiced, but when it is, it's regulated, and when it's practiced properly, the Lord accepts it and in fact commands it, and when it's malpractice the Lord condemns it. Right. So it had the very specific purpose.
Speaker 1:I guess, like obviously we have talked about this before, but what would be some of those specific purposes for a group of like worshippers to practice polygamy?
Speaker 2:uh, do you want me to answer that, or ross?
Speaker 1:I don't know. The floor is open.
Speaker 3:I mean there's different theories. We don't have necessarily data to say, oh, a certain amount of men died and it was to proportion. But one thing that you do see in. I mean I think we can all agree on dynastic ceilings. Do we agree with that? I think we kind of need to define spiritual wif on like dynastic ceilings. Do we agree with that? I think we kind of need to define spiritual wifery and dynastic ceilings, like when that's the audience before I get Explain it.
Speaker 1:I like, yeah, go for it.
Speaker 3:It's kind of the same. So like I guess dynastic ceilings was kind of the idea that like everyone wanted to be kind of sealed together and so you have like and everyone's kind of trying to somehow be sealed with Joseph Smith, so you're having like brotherly male companionship ceilings. Obviously that's not sexual, you know. You have Joseph Smith getting sealed like a 54 yearold woman who clearly there was no gratification there. You have adoptions. I think there was the record. I might need to double check this, but I think someone was sealed to Joseph Smith as a servant.
Speaker 3:But basically the idea is that like a kingdom is like a kinship, like a giant family and like it was kind of to be part of that eternal family. The chief exaltation, and maybe that was like like a gross poor interpretation of salvation back then. You know they were just the gospel is very new, they're just trying to figure things out. Spiritual wifery I guess how we define it is like you're going to be like married in the next life but not like you're sealed but you're not married in this life, you're married in the next life. That's another theory.
Speaker 3:Yeah, subscribe more to the dynastic ceilings. I think it makes more sense to me. You know, I don't think Joe Smith was checking out like a 54 woman being like, oh, I want to like be like her husband in the next life. Like, probably not like her husband in the next life. Like, probably not like her husband. That 54 old woman's husband was like not, I think he had left the church and so it was like let's bring her into the fold and let's ensure her salvation yeah, and I think you're touching on a great point right there with the idea.
Speaker 1:So this idea of sealing was introduced right and it was taught that in order to receive exaltation you had to be sealed right, and so kind of the way I see it and this could be wrong, you guys can push back on this but I think they kind of went a little bit sealing happy, trying to ensure everyone's blessing of exaltation by making sure they were part of a sealed family, and so that's kind of how I saw it, and over time we as a church have received further revelation and direction on how to direct the sealing power in this dispensation, and so that's kind of how I have seen this idea of dynastic sealing is like they were just trying to guarantee everyone's salvation and exaltation in some way or form.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it was like it was kind of hard to do if you think about it, because it's like like baptisms for the dead and ceilings for the dead wasn't like as much of a systemized process until wilford woodruff. Yeah, back in the day the saints were like on the move, you know, like they were getting chased from place to place, temples and buildings were getting burned and it was just kind of like we need to be sealed to be saved and like all this chaos is unfolding. These mobs like and the interpretation is that it was more adoptive to ensure salvation, not like we're going to be spouses in the next life, you know yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:So I think there was a definitely an attitude between marriage and sealing that was distinguishable with saints, like they didn't see sealing as equating to marriage. I think we now, as a Latter-day Saint population, do equate sealing with marriage. Yeah, but to them it wasn't necessarily that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I guess some evidence for that is just like. As we know, like and some of our viewers may not know, but it's according to DNA Joseph Smith only had children with one wife. It was Emma. There's been theories, oh, this person, this person like DNA is pretty much debunked at every single time and some people will kind of use that as evidence to be like he wasn't, he was monogamous. But I mean, it's pretty clear when you read, like the partridge sisters, you know accounts of them, that he was clearly marrying people. But the fact of the matter is that, like, um, a lot of these ceilings might have been, you know, it could have been spiritual wifery or it could have been dynastic, but it clearly like wasn't sexual. You know, this is coming from a time where, you know, on the on the west, the western frontier, like birth control wasn't all that successful. If you have 33 wives and you only have children with one of them, that kind of raises some questions only have children with one of them.
Speaker 1:That kind of raises some questions.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like birth control wasn't invented until after world war ii.
Speaker 1:So, like the pill, yeah, and then, yeah, so we can. We can go down contraceptives all day long. I think, like, another big part of this that we have to understand is whether, like, there was sexual relations or not. It does come back to joel's original question of, like, do you believe that it was under the direction of a, of a prophetic mantle? Right, because, like, if he, if it was, then regardless if there were sexual relations or not, it was under the direction of god. So I guess, like, how do you? Like, how do you help someone to realize that? How do you, how do you, how do you find that answer yourself? How do you come to terms with that? You know?
Speaker 2:Okay, I think this is just one of the most obvious forms of presentism that we see with people is like, oh, polygamy, that's gross, that's weird, that's that's gross, that's weird, that's wrong. Right, and not looking back, like I've already brought up the fact that polygamy has been practiced basically in every culture and every time period by one group of people or another. Right, this is a very common practice. Is it always ordained of God? No, that is why I think people confuse the fact that monogamy is the norm but polygamy is acceptable when ordained by God, right, and a lot of times people love to be all in or all out, right, a lot of people hate nuance. People hate nuance, they hate thinking critically, right, we just want things to be simple and clear. But it's not like that, okay, because we're imperfect beings trying to interpret what a perfect being reveals to us, right? So we're going to have some flaws, we're going to mess up sometimes and we're not going to understand how things work all the time. And so if you want to better understand polygamy and why it exists, or understand why it's okay, you have to understand more. So what its purpose is, and we've talked a little bit about that. But for me, me understanding that when the Lord commands polygamy is for a specific purpose, is to raise up seed unto himself, as he says, as the prophet teaches us, right. He says unless I shall raise up seed unto myself, and so I think he's raising up a specific generation.
Speaker 2:Look at the people who practice polygamy, or the big figures who did right, you see that Abraham did. Abraham is the father of the covenant, right. And then you see, for sure, with Israel or Jacob, right, having four wives and having 12. And those end up being the 12 tribes of Israel, and each family has a specific blessing attached to them. Right, having four wives and having 12. And those end up being the 12 tribes of Israel, and each family has a specific blessing attached to them, right. And then you see, moses also is a polygamist, a great prophet, someone who would restore Israel back to God once again, right. And so this is actually kind of a common thing that we see among these key figures in the gospel, these dispensational leaders, and so I think that each dispensation, that this is something that is restored, because it is the foundation on which the Lord can build a righteous foundation. Right, it's where the Lord can build a righteous people. Hey, moses, I know this is me just told, this is like my version of Midrash. Right, this is me, my interpolations. This is not doctrine, but I mean, just think about it logically.
Speaker 2:Let's start with Abraham. Abraham, you leave the land of your father. You need to raise up a big nation under yourself, a righteous nation, one to follow and keep my covenants. So what's the fastest way to do that? Well, have a big family. How do you do that? You have multiple wives. Now you go a few generations later, two generations later, the covenant's going to get a little more specified right to one group of people. All right, jacob, we need a really big family, because your family is going to bless the entire world with the gospel, and so we need this group to be strong. We need a strong base to raise this family.
Speaker 2:Boom, all right, the people of Israel have fallen into a little bit of an apostasy.
Speaker 2:While under the Egyptian rule, they're not respecting God, god's still going to honor his covenant with his people and to his prophets, and all Moses is called Moses' family needs to be strong and you see, moses' best support, and sometimes his greatest critiques, come from his family, from his siblings, but ultimately, I think the Lord knew he needed Moses to have a large family, people who are influential within the tribes of Israel, and so I think you see this every time there's a big leader and they're coming out of apostasy or moving into a new dispensation.
Speaker 2:It seems to be that polygamy is kind of the way the Lord builds the base of His people to strengthen the whole, and I don't think there's any difference. I think that the reason that a lot of the polygamists, the apostles and prophets of the Latter-day Church where polygamists was just for that a lot of their descendants are still helping to support and sustain the church in leadership callings and just as regular members Like I'm a descendant of a polygamy, of a polygamist right, morgan, you are too, so it's like, and our families are, yeah, so it's like a lot of us can trace our roots back to this, and so I think the Lord has used it to raise up a specific group of people to strengthen the whole, and that's my theory. I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 3:It's kind of ironic to me how it's like if I'm promiscuous and I get around the block like that's, no one bats an eye. But that's like if I were was gonna say if I were to make two people oh my gosh, you horrible misogynist.
Speaker 1:Like it makes no sense it's kind of crazy, like, like, as you see, like just regular people, like yeah, they have multiple partners, or we're starting to see people practice polyamory, which some people think that is strange, and I agree, and I think it's very easy like for this to get out of hand. I think, like we see it with our day and age right now, without marriage, but like, even like during the time of Joseph Smith, there was even people who were practicing spiritual wifery, right, um, and we can go down that rabbit hole where Joseph Smith condemned those people and they were excommunicated. Like I think you have to understand like God implements it for a purpose and only implements it with people kind of like you're saying Joel, like his most righteous, those who are going to obey within the bounds the Lord sets. And I think, like we, even today, we have certain bounds around marriage and sexual relations with the law of chastity, right, so, like and like those bounds are set by God and God can change those bounds for his purpose.
Speaker 1:So sometimes you have to come to this idea of like we don't, we can't control God and what he wants us to do and the commandments he implements. And I think that's a hard thing for people to, they run up against with this idea of polygamy. It's like they have to face this idea that, oh, I don't control God meaning. Like they have to come to grasp that God actually commanded someone to do something that they find very strange and weird right, and that can actually be a really hard thing to do, like do I accept that God is real and that he reveals hyper specific commandments with hyper specific boundaries, and do I trust him enough to follow his commandments, even if I find they're strange Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of those things where I feel like every time something makes us uncomfortable, we just want to be like we try to rationalize our way out of it, yeah, and we try to find a way that, oh, maybe not, I don't know. I don't like this. I'm trying to think of a good example of something that like or think about here, like today, when people don't like the idea. Well, we have a lot of LGBTQ friends, families and even members of the church and people are asked about the family proclamation Do you support the family proclamation? They give a beat around the bush, answer, you know, people are like, oh, kind of, yeah, you know, because they don't want to offend, or it seems, you know, out of touch.
Speaker 2:And I feel like for the longest time, we also did that with polygamy, where it's like we tried to beat around the bush and we tried to make it seem like it's not that big, wasn't that important, and hardly anyone ever did it anyways. No, it was a big part of our history. And so I think if we just embrace these things that make us unique and stop trying to hide from them or run from them, and we stop viewing them as a blemish on our history and instead embrace them as a mark of our heritage. I think we're gonna see a lot more. We're going to see people's hearts change and open more to that Right, and so I hope that that kind of made sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, like a lot of the time, the obstacle is the way um there's a great book on on that Um, the more we lean into harder things, like about the church, or or even like like things we don't necessarily like, um, or or like commandments that are hard for us to keep, or like truths that are hard for us to grasp.
Speaker 1:I've always found, when I really try to put more effort into those things, the payoff is is better, or like I receive a lot more revelation or answers. When I go down the harder path and I think that's the story of the gospel in general Like living a Christ-centered life and living a life within the bounds God set is, the payoff is huge, like the blessings and like for ourselves is immense. And so I think, like, instead of trying to run away from these things, lean into it and try to understand it and get a, an answer from God. It's going to pay dividends, more so than running away from it or denying it. Because then, if you can receive an answer from God on polygamy, what else can you go out and find an answer to Some of your greatest questions you'll you'll be able to find answers to if you can receive an answer from God on this. I don't know, I don't know if you guys agree with that or not, but that's kind of my take.
Speaker 2:I totally agree. I think it's like this is a great way to like stretch your faith and to stretch your ability to receive and your humility, like stop thinking you know everything. Stop thinking you know what's like objectively right and wrong. Right, go out and ask God what it is right. Let the Spirit guide you, and I know people will come back and say, oh, I prayed about these polygamy deniers, like I prayed about polygamy and I had the greatest revelatory experience of my life and I just felt a burning of the bosom, I felt the baptism of fire and you know, I think it's interesting. So it's definitely a topic I want to delve into and I think another episode we should talk about the Try the Spirits article, I think, or something that Joseph Smith wrote about how we distinguish what is the Spirit of God and what is not.
Speaker 2:And so, as far as the simplest thing I can say is, look at the patterns God has established, look at the testimonies born by those who lead and guide us and who we sustain as prophets and apostles, and then don't lean onto your own understanding, lean onto God's, and if you still don't have a testimony that this was from God, you still don't have a testimony that this was the right thing. You know. Have patience. You know, not everything comes at once. I wasn't born with a testimony of the Book of Mormon. It came over time. And I wasn't born with a testimony of the atonement right that it actually worked and applied to me. It came over time. Just because you don't have that testimony yet doesn't mean it's not true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think another good point is like, if you feel like you're receiving an answer contrary to the body of the church, meaning like the leadership of the church, that should be your first warning flag, right? Like it's like oh, I received revelation that I should no longer pay tithing, yet there's a big like, lots of teachings surrounding tithing and why we should pay it. That should be. And you feel like I feel good about it. Like I feel like I received a witness. It's like, okay, yeah, you're probably on the wrong path then, because tithing is a worldwide or a churchwide commandment. Right, god isn't going to just repel or turn over a commandment just for one person, you know. So that is something we have to be cognizant of as well, and I think that's where I see a lot of people go down a lot of wrong paths or get misled is because they feel like they received revelation that's contrary to the rest, you know which.
Speaker 1:It doesn't work that way. It never has. God has never been like oh, you can keep this commandment and you can't. Like he actually has very general, wide-ranging commandments for everyone, and everyone's capacity can line up with keeping those commandments. God will help them keep those commandments. So just a few things that based off what you said Joel.
Speaker 2:No, dude, I sorry I ended that out, but, Ross, I want to kind of go back to you, man, I've seen a couple of posts that you've done about polygamy, addressing this. Is there anything that we missed or any kind of interesting facts that you just kind of know about it from your studies or things that, like people, you think it'd be good for, just like the common member, to know?
Speaker 3:I mean like if you read. I think one thing that makes it clear to me that it was commanded by God is like if you read a book called Rostow and Rowling, which was written by a member, that it was commanded by God is like if you read a book called Rostow and Rowling which was written by a member. It really shows how, like polygamy caused nothing but chaos for Joseph Smith, like he really got no benefit from it. Like it got to the point where they think that Emma Smith got jealous of the Partridge sisters, poisoned him, he threw up so much that he dislocated his jaw and all these people were trying to kill him over it.
Speaker 3:Like he was kind of Joe Smith had. You know, he had an ego right and his ego was getting shattered by these like press and just like he, he clearly didn't want it, like he surely got no benefit from it, you know. So I would encourage to. If you kind of want to understand polygamy from a really non-biased perspective, I would recommend reading rough stone rolling and then try and argue to me that like he got so much you know from it. Yeah, like so, yeah, that's my final.
Speaker 1:Well, even in the saints books, like, there's a lot of like things where, like, joseph smith was super hesitant, like when he first received the revelation he kind of ignored it, and this is after he the whole like lost manuscript stuff that he went through early on in his prophetic calling. So for him to try to go against the grain on Revelation must have mean it was something that was really like he really didn't want to do. For him to risk it again after that whole experience, right and like and don't quote me on this like, definitely go read this for yourself. But there was even an instance where it talked about how he had to be visited by an angel and really reassured that he needed to do this.
Speaker 3:Wait, say, say that again, ross I mean sword, yep, exactly, so I believe one of the reports from that comes from mary elizabeth rollins.
Speaker 2:I think she's one that you can read and there's a few other ones I know I want to say Zina even has one, or one of the early Relief Society presidents has an account of Joseph recounting this. So yeah, no, but I think this is a great lesson for all of us. Sometimes the commandments of the Lord do not seem easy. When we resist, life gets harder. When we embrace, life doesn't always get easier. Right, sometimes commandments are just hard, sometimes they're just difficult. But the important thing is it's better to remain in a difficult situation knowing that God has, that you're obeying God, than to live in an easy situation while being in defiance to the Lord. So that's my testimony, that it's just better that we submit our wills and we humble ourselves and do the will of the Father and of the Son and follow them, and that we can have that blessing of the Spirit to be with us and he will comfort us even in our trials and our struggles. And it's worth it and that's my testimony on it.
Speaker 1:Sweet. Someone better quote Joel on that part. That was, that was a, that was a mic drop. If I ever heard one, remember little flock. Despair not build upon the rock. Do good and always hear him. Hey, little flock. If you felt this episode was helpful for your testimony, please like leave a review and share with a friend and follow for more.